March 14, 2021

Mr Kevin Lee

VP, Chief Product Officer

eBay Korea

Kevin Lee, Chief Product Officer at eBay Korea, is responsible for the overall vision and strategy of products and services for Korea’s largest e-commerce company operating under Gmarket, Auction, and G9. In this role, Kevin oversees the team of design, product, and engineering to drive innovation initiatives and deliver great products to extend the market leadership.  

Previously, Kevin was Vice President and Head of Design at Visa, Inc, responsible for setting the vision to help designing digital products and Visa’s design system has been recognized by Fast Company for 2017 Innovation by Design Awards. Prior to Visa, Kevin led the design studio at Samsung responsible for the overall product strategy and launch of Gear Fit. Kevin was also responsible for the global design team at eBay and Paypal, as well as Whirlpool Corporation designing and launching consumer products with CES awards. Before Whirlpool, Kevin led a global team at GE Healthcare launching Vscan where it was named by TIME magazine as The 50 Best Inventions of 2009.  


people, product, invention, question, passion, ceo, younger generation, design, problem, industry, users, invent, solve, speak, organisation, oftentimes, company, important, country, career


All right. So welcome, everyone, and thanks for joining. As I chat with CEOs all over the globe, my name is Audrey, I'm your host today, and I'm also the lead of the SEO class Hong Kong chapter. Today's session will last around an hour. And please feel free to raise your questions under the question tab, so that we can ensure your questions can be answered. In this room, we're happy to have our honourable guests Mr. Kevin Lee with me today. Kevin is currently the Chief Product officer for eBay, Korea. Hello, Kevin, thank you so much for your time and sharing your journey with us. Could you please tell us a little bit more about yourself? And what do you do eBay?


Sure, Audrey. Thank you for the introduction. So my name is Kevin Lee. I am currently Chief Product officer at eBay Korea, which is part of eBay. In San Jose, us. My job is really looking out for all the product experiences for the app and web. For both, you know, the b2c side, but also there's a lot of b2b side of e commerce for those of you who are in the e commerce sector. So essentially responsible for not only user experience, but part of management, but also product engineering, as well. So I have a very unique position of overseeing the entire sort of teams that actually need to make the products go live. Before eBay was many other companies. As you guys might have looked at my profile, I was a design leader for global companies like visa, eBay, back in the days and PayPal, work for Samsung, and ge. So I have a very variety of different industry backgrounds. But the common thread that actually makes me who I am today's just focusing on user experience. So that's so far, the introduction.


Right? So I'm aware that you have dedicated to digital product design for your entire career. So how do you find or confirm your passion for product design as an early stage?


Woman, I think the you just have to have a curiosity. There's something that prerequisite and you don't learn at school, you just have to be natural to look at things, you know, very differently. When people are looking at certain objects, you have to wonder why the object was designed, what what the purposes of an object is not only just, you know, enjoying the using of it, but the reason behind it. So this is that I think that's kind of how I prepare me to sort of be serious about what I do for now, in a very early days of my, I guess, around college years, where I get very curious about every single one of them. And I think that led me to just looking into the discipline and major that actually allow me to take a deeper, you know, sort of dive into learning more properly, like theories and practices and different knowledge that you wouldn't otherwise able to get. So, okay, curiosity is a prerequisite.


So how do you prepare yourself to get into the industry?


I think there's a, there's a lot of different ways to do it. At least from my experience, and something that I've been telling everyone, whether you are the just about getting into entry level position of a company, or you're seasoned leaders, there are still looking to have different experiences, when you're incumbent to the industry of the company, nowadays, I think is different than what it was before. So I'm going to just speak for current stage of where we are. You just have to be not choosy or picky about companies or industry you're interested in. The best way to prepare for is to apply as many jobs out there that you possibly see. And as long as it seems like a reasonable within the level that you're looking for. Even if you're not interested in it, go for it. Because you need to get into the real life of an interview, practice. It sounds kind of unfair to the employer side. But there are so many companies are looking for so many different talents, there is no longer a one size fits all. So it's shame if you're only looking for, you know, certain things. So get yourself out of the comfort zone, apply as many as possible. And when they're saying, Hey, we're interested in you, let's talk, to talk, and to acquire knowledge through the real life talking to the in person, employers and other colleagues. And I think that's how you get really get practical about everything. And, of course, you know, networking is another big part. You know, nowadays people are very courageous in reaching out to different people, strangers, I get LinkedIn invite, every day from people I've never met, used to be where you don't connect with those people will now it becomes kind of a surah, somewhere ritual, that you just want to reach out to new people connect, learn from them, even, you know, ask for some feedbacks, like portfolios or, you know, CV, you know, review, things like that. So I think those are another good way of get yourself into that. The door. So basically, what I'm trying to say is that, whatever we learn conventionally is probably not the way that we should keep keeping forward, and keep your options open to look at other ways that you would otherwise been told not to do it. There's no such thing as a playbook anymore. Seems like you just have to find your own comfort zone, and then really be assertive about driving for weather is, you know, the, like I said, the interview tactics, or networking with strangers or LinkedIn, whatever it makes you feel getting out of the comfort zone, that's what you need to do.


Yes, I share your your will as well. So like, keep trying, keep stepping out of your comfort zone. So I start understanding the meaning of like networking. So there's lots of opportunities, we can try and put ourselves out there to sell it ourselves selling our profile, as well. So, um, I would like to more is more about like, technical questions. So what are the three key elements needed to be addressed when inventing or like designing a new products?


Yeah, that's good question. I mean, there are many different, no sort of answers that you will find, and which all of them's are correct, yet, all of them are wrong. What I mean by that is that you really have to find your own set of elements are factors, especially if you're interested in, you know, having a startup through the environment. Now, of course, if you're going into a company, a corporate side, dimension is such a unrealistic word, you're not really given a mission to invent something, you're part of the larger team that actually works on problems that were defined for you. But when you're truly into their invention mode, I think there's three things that you need to keep in mind. But those three things are still applied to the corporate world, if you're interested in that route, which is, you got to really ask yourself, why you're doing it. If you're pursuing an idea, you really have to ask yourself, hopefully, no one does it for money. But you got to have to ask for one of the passions, what passion that drives me to do this. Because inventing something is very, very difficult, you know, I think I'm lucky to have you know, a couple the invention disclosure, my you know, belt, but it's very difficult to invent something nowadays. Unless you're in a very niche, niche, scientific area or technology area. Most of us who are through the, into the building a services and products, it's very hard to get invent something, but so you have to ask yourself, why you're doing it? Do you have a passion for it? Second thing is, you know, what problem I try to solve. It's very cliche problem, but it is something very important. I mean,


and then you think everything will be solved for you. It is at the tip of the iceberg. You really have to understand the underlying technology, even if you're not our engineers, you also have to understand since we're talking about invention, how do you make the money out of that invention, whether there's a financial or ROI because a lot of things that we People do make mistakes is that when you have a such a great idea itself will be, you know, pay the dividends of all the efforts and you know, the time that you spend, I think the sooner you realise the return of investment of time that you put in to invention, the idea that we'll be going to market, it will be more successful. Because nowadays, I think some people are even able to invent things without going to college. So no longer there is that classic definition of, you know, invention has to be done by some PhD in your lab. It is invention that comes from the curiosity, like I said before, so if you're curious, if you if you're curious about everything, then your motivations and passions or their understanding, then what problem just like zooming into the very specific problem you're trying to solve for. And if you're clear about that, then you then you just have to make sure that you're gonna make it to reality, which is where you, yourself alone cannot do it. So you need to team up with people to work together. But those are three things that I will say, the important elements from my experiences.


Wow. Okay, so I would like to know, how do you and your team when brainstorming like a project or like our product, because like you said, is a very creative or somehow is like, very subjective, like, are very individual by individual? So how do you come across where the product? Maybe some people, they have different thoughts? or different elements? How can you solve that?


Yeah, this, this very important question, and my answer will be very important to replicate. So oftentimes, the, we say, we are collaborating, right collaboration is that you know, the keywords everyone's talking about. But when you actually look at how the team structure, there isn't a collaboration, you know, meeting someone send your meeting invite, and you show up at the meeting, that's not collaboration, which means a meeting host already has set of agenda, to save agenda that, you know, they're going to read out to you, and then you're going to start discussing or debate about their agenda. The true way of working is, you got a product person, you got a design person, and you have this, you know, engineer person. And then if you start thinking about other functions, like marketing's you got a business person, or even a CS person, but as a core product and engineering and design has to come to the table at the same time. And it's very difficult, as I said, because it sounds easy. But there's always point where someone do get the first receiving end of the information. And he or she needs to immediately then pull the team together. And then hey, this is what we have been told that we need to solve for. But then before you go any further, which is your own analysis of the problem that you've been given in to open it up to your other peers, where they get the same problem from different angle. And oftentimes, that's that has been usually delayed for some reasons. And usually, the product management is the one who filters idea. He or she comes to the table with the Hey, designers and product developers come here, and here's a problem we should solve for. But that's too late, because that has already filtered by someone else, when that same original problem can be interpreted together with multidisciplinary team. So having a multi true multidisciplinary team setting is really, really important and key differentiator. And so I think that's the my advice or, you know, response to the question of collaboration is important, but not in a way that most of us think about.


As you mentioned, you also say that when you inventing a product, you will think about what problems are you going to solve? So we'll invite like the end user for the test or a trial during the invention process.


I think that we need to be careful about the word invention, because innovation is really, like I said rarely happens. I'm a more believer of evolution, evolving problems. Revolution is very, very hard and only comes once in a lifetime. If not, never. So, you know if I put out from an evolution perspective is this Like I said, it takes sort of triad, right? To always work in tandem. But then having that user or customer as part of the process is important. But it's why you know, when we're when we're using the word invention, once it has been shown to users is no longer, you know, qualify for novelty, because it's been shown to someone else. Or if you're in the evolving stage of product area, then having a users as part of the process is absolutely required. But I think it's also important to know when to involve users. Oftentimes, we've been blinded think that the user has all the answers. And trust me, I am a big fan of, you know, human centre, and user centred design and everything that you guys we all talk about. But you also hear many times users don't know what they don't know. So there's a point where whether you want to involve user because you really have no idea, the problem areas you're trying to solve, which is then going back to the your all your question, you shouldn't start the project because you don't know what problem you're trying to solve for. And you're asking users to help answer the question, which is not the way to go about. But what I've been found effective is you use you involve users at a validation phase, rather than a, a, you know, in the beginning part of the project, you involve users from a validation standpoint, because that's where your product and services needs to be validated before we go to the production costs of changing it is very, prohibitively high. So I think that's where the involving user is very effective. But it's also differ from industry by industry. Like healthcare is definitely important involve customers or users at the very beginning. very specialised industry. It's almost like doctors and technologists, so they need to be involved with from beginning. But at the same time, if you're in the consumer electronics, or consumer goods space, you don't need to really involve users because you, you yourself are users. If you put yourself in, okay, I'm going to be working on my wearable today. Well, you can be a designer, you can be engineer, you can be a product guy, evaluating the product. So it really different from industry industry. But involving users, at some point is absolutely critical for product success.


Yes, that really interesting. He does, I think like like product designer, they're one of the users. So sometimes they must have some problems they want to solve by themselves. But like during on a job, or as a user, maybe they have like different like angle that they have opinions or like comments. So yeah, great. So I like to talk more about your global exposure. So you work in us in your early career, and then go back to the South Korea recently. So what brings you back, so and also how's their working experience in the US?


Um, so I spend most of my career in the US. And then last, why shave three years ago, almost three years ago, I was in London for two years. And then Italy for like six months. So I kind of been lucky enough to be working in multiple regions and the content countries. And so if I answer the other first question about, you know, how did I transition from sort of Global Head of design role to a product officer is his combination of being at the right time, right place, but also, also the other combination of the employer actually looking for someone like me? In other words, you know, being at the right time I placed is something that you don't control, you just have to be in the right place, right? I mean, there's nothing I can do, nothing you can do. Whether you call it predestine, your career or luck, however you want to describe it. That that is one big part. But the other piece is where I found very interesting because nowadays, when you think about Chief Product officer, usually, most of cheaper officers that I know of don't have design background. They're highly technical, either their engineering background or a product management background, or sometimes a business background. But now I'm seeing in the last five years or so, gradual increase of CPO there who actually have come from design background. because more and more increasingly, a lot of companies are looking for user experience as a competitive advantage. And if you haven't design and build the product from a design perspective, it's really hard to understand the degree part of what it takes to build a product. So I think employers are looking for that type of profile. And eBay, Korea was basically looking for that type of profile at the time, who of course need to have a bilingual as well, which you really narrow down the poll choice from, say, 102, down to maybe less than one or two. And my previous CEO, was someone that knew me before that we got connected, and that led to another and then decided to move so. But like I said, I think that journey that you guys maybe want to take is something that you just have to be clear about what you're looking for. And it isn't necessarily about the title of the job, which oftentimes a lot of people fall into the trap. But it's really about going back to passion, what I said earlier, you really have to stick to that passion as your driver, as if your passion is to be a whatever the products, software, hardware, you know, app web doesn't matter. You want to build something that will really enable human to do work better, and enjoy their life a little bit better than staying within that product space is the way to go. But if you're I think so understanding your passion is very important. And, and then looking for what industry you want to get yourself in another important factor, but regardless of it, you need to be at the right time, right place. So that's why I said earlier to keep reaching out to people, even if you are settled with a job to get distracted, but you need to start always constantly looking out for what's out there. And then continually calibrate yourself against the opportunities.


Yes. So I know like, currently I'm moving season so people just like get used to like remote working. So it's like, we are not talking about just working in a like physical office right now. So maybe we were to travel a lot, although because a COVID. But like in our generation right now. So we are okay that we move to other countries to work, keep following our passion to work in certain industry. So could you tell me a little bit more about what is the working culture different from different, like, countries and bosses is like, anything that we can learn from you?


Yeah, I mean, I think that definitely country by country, just different, sort of the ritual, right. So, I mean, I can recall when I was in London, Europeans are very relaxed, or more relaxed than other countries. So that's something that a lot of even Americans are not used to. Even that relaxing environment. I thought that being in California was very relaxing, but wasn't, he was actually very tense. And being in Midwest, us is different. Maybe due to the weather, and then being in Europe is legacy very different than being in Asia, or Korea is certainly very fast pace. And I'm sure, very similar to where you guys are, there's Hong Kong or other parts of you know, Asia. So I think that's very interesting mix to the your career as well. Because you need to not only look for what industry you want to be part of, or depending on the industry, the company that you want to work for, isn't necessarily within your comfort area of your country. So you always have to have this mindset of, as I said earlier, passion. If your passion is a very four most important thing, then geographical location shouldn't become barrier. But I see so many great talents didn't pursue because they didn't want to get out of California. They love California. Okay. And there goes your, your passion, you're compromising your passion over lifestyle. So I think I think that's something that we all need to be, you know, step back and look at it and be sure where you put value of your career. And I fortunately I've been very fortunate, having supporting family that we move around different places. And of course, the benefit of it is you be exposed to a truly global culture of many different people. global culture doesn't come when you make so many business trips to one country. A lot of people mistake to think that they know they've contributed into countries so many times through business trip. But that is you don't know the culture at all, unless you live there for like 369 12 months, that you become part of that, you know, local people. So I think the that's been always been big passion of mine always want to expose to different countries. So I think that will, will keep me going in that direction. But I think most importantly, because every culture has different requisite ritual, combined them with your discipline, whether it's a design or product or engineering, you really have to find the middle ground, sometimes compromise what you want to actually carry on, because you want to carry on to different country will clash with their understanding of whether value or not like, for example, some countries European, you know, getting a text message from your boss, after six is very, very offensive. Whereas other countries is pretty normal, right? So you really have to know how to draw your cultural boundary, which can impact your work, your productivity that you've been trained to think into one way, but I think, you know, especially COVID, 19, does put us that boundary off, right, there's no more boundary. So I think that's good thing for a lot of people that who are become more vulnerable to time differences and geographic differences. Some companies are so allowing people to work from other countries, a lot of tax implications that they need to solve for. But nonetheless, I think, again, it's really going back to the what you're after in terms of passion that makes global mobility as part of very appealing career path, then Soviet, you go for it. But that does not mean that those of you who wants to stay within the one region, one country that's equally viable to not compare to other people, but just continue to ask yourself question. Yes, I


totally get it. Because I would like to ask you, because I state my life, mostly in Hong Kong. So I don't think Oh, is that like, I'm not enough global exposure, but as you said, it's like, just follow your passion like this loss of life channels, you can still reach out to other side or part of the world. So yes, you answer my question already. So I would like to check about about leadership. So what do you think the current like COVID-19 challenge that bring to the students or younger generation, like, on the e commerce or like online business? What do you think?


Definitely, it's a confusing because I think none of us has experienced this COVID-19 before. Maybe there are people that have gone through SARS. But I haven't. So it wasn't first time me as well. forced to work from home so many month, I mean, more than a year now. younger generation who's actually going to school or about to graduate from college, or doing an internship for the first time that they were showing up to the office, but doing it over to them is very unnatural. But I think the it is also opportunity for many people. This is where you need to figure out whether you want to embrace it, and then find a way to get on it before you continue to complain about, you know, life before COVID-19. Because whether we gonna get back to work, which is probably soon, right, within 12 months, with a vaccine all around the world, we will be back. But people who experienced this zoom world or the remote world more than a year, or work differently and think differently, because the companies are already thinking about doing it differently, right? companies already thinking about why should we have permanent office, when over the year we work fine without you know, having a physical space. So I think a lot of things will change over the next two to three years in terms of working policy, company culture. So I think younger generation needs to be what I always say to my own employees, especially those who are coming out of college and joining the team. Be fearless. There is a one trait the younger generation do have younger doesn't have to be to exercise that fearless emerging leadership in a most respectful way. So that means in the voice your opinions, not follow the direction of, you know, other leaders. But think that why are we doing the way that I don't understand, then you understand you need to raise your voice. And I think that's very one thing that COVID-19 does put a licence to everyone to ask question, why am I working from home, when my colleagues in other countries going back to office, or you know, why we are making decisions the way we are when I think we should make decision otherwise, those things aren't coming with the title or the seniority, he comes from everything else. And I think I found younger generation tend to be more, I don't know, embracing that type of change more than other generation. And I think the younger generation just need to know where to exert the energy in a right way to benefiting themselves, but also benefiting the company.


So many, what is your life management or leadership style? Where managing this young, light generation in your team?


Yeah, that's good question. I, you know, I'm a big fan of creating this very horizontal culture where everyone's able to speak up, and then everyone's voice counts. So what I always tell everyone is that whenever I or other leaders speak about anything, make sure that they only have up to 50% accurate answers to everything. It means that if you only listen to their statement or their opinions, you're basically only agreeing to the 50% of accurate response, which, if you make a decision based on that, you only have 50% of getting it right. The other 50% is being shared by the voice of the employee. And that's why you make this 100% of accurate response decision based on everyone's idea. So I always use that as a metaphor for people to speak up. Because if you don't, you only allow in organisations to go on with a 50% accurate decision. And that puts a lot of younger generation people to be confident about sharing their ideas, knowing that you know what, I can be 100% I can never be 100%. Right. But what Kevin says true, then I'm always gonna be 50%. Right? 80%, right, with the other 50% right from another person, then you get this 100% right answer. I got nothing to fear about. So I think that's very important that I've been promoting a lot. But the other thing is that, like I said before, one of the questions all your, you will have to be in the habit of asking for other discipline. So I always ask people, if you're in the meeting, look around you. And if you don't see your partner, meaning they if you're designers, but if you don't see your engineering buddy. In the meeting, you got to ask for where is this person why this person is not invited? If you're the product person, but if you don't see your design partners being invited to the meeting, your product person has to raise your voice saying, Where is my partner in crime designer here? Why isn't she or he invited? So I think really, making sure everyone's accountable for problem solving. Another thing that I've been really promoting and, you know, I think a lot of problems that we're dealing with in organisation are not the rocket science. He started from very simple things like what I just mentioned, I've been ignored and that's why a lot of times he got add up to the point where you can solve anything at all in the company. If you start with a very fundamental levels of those organisation one on one where you're going to respect people's ideas and then one head is no no no better than two heads. So therefore you need to always ask people to come together in the meeting. Then that's how you really start building up the healthy organisation so those things I'm trying every day and it's working longer but it working.


Yeah, I feel like


you're 50% accurate policy ally rule really encouraging like more police who are like lack of confidence they can more speak up because I remember when I was younger, in the company, I was afraid to speak up even though I do something wrong. I really want to enjoy the conversation because I'm afraid that I am not like giving the like most accurate like answers to the team. So which may be look stupid, like, my senior may think, oh, you better just be quiet, don't make any more trouble. But that route, really like change my mind. So I think well being your team would be very helpful. So I think you have like lots of like ideas from the teams collected. When these like policy or rules like using right, you can see the chamber? Yeah, so what would you advise the young generation if they want to be CEO in the future? So what should they know? What should they learn? And what skills are crucial to develop?


Well, that's, that's a loaded question right there. First of all, if anybody any younger generation ones have have a mission or have a purpose of goal to become CEO, wow, I respect them a lot. Because I didn't know if I ever want to be in a C level position. It just one thing led to another one. But my advice is, after I gone through that spectrum of my career, you it's okay to tell yourself that you want to be CEO. It means that you have to be very open to be vulnerable. I think that that is one thing that I'm still working on it. But being vulnerable is essential requirement for you to become any anywhere near sea level. Because it comes with a lot of responsibility beyond your imagination. And if you are being able to drive your ideas, you've been trained to think that your ideas are accurate. Based on your proven track record, which is great for you, you are going to likely to fall into the trap of not able to create this consensus across different discipline, especially when you're CEO, you have to really listen to a lot of people see you is not in position to make decision. CEO is especially in decision to place listen. So you've got to be in the habit of listening a lot, which is oftentimes, when you get to the certain levels of career, you start stop listening, you stop, start telling people what to do. And if you get so used to it, it's very hard to unwind back to listening mode. So my advice is, if you ever want to become C level person, listen, it's very hard. But listen, more or less than than you speak, that's the right, you know, portion. And then welcome the environment that you when you find yourself vulnerable. That's how you grow so fast and any about anybody else. So that's why I said, you know, one of the best way to find the vulnerabilities, you know, sign up for the petition or the role that you know, is not the best for you. Meaning that is not the leveraging your best quality, what you signed up for, because you're going to learn something, you're going to grow something. And the last thing is, don't be afraid of doing a lateral move. Oftentimes, we say you know what, I'm going to be the best, you know, like CEO, or SCP or best CFO or whatever, right. And you just stick to the one discipline and you just go deeper, deeper, deeper to be the expert, which is fine. But nowadays, you need to have a very, very different knowledge from googling something on the internet, or looking at the book is not a real life experience of actually doing it hands on experience. So all it is, especially when you're younger generation 20s. My advice is, look, work at multitude of different jobs in a lateral move. Still aiming to get you where you want to go. So like if you're looking for an experiential space, then try to go start with design or product. But having a marketing experience may not be a bad idea. Because you need to know how their product and service will be marketed. And end to end experience. And then you really start to hone in on a very one specific area that you want to go deeper as an expert. So a lot of different things. But um, yeah, it's certainly it's difficult to answer by the by my answer is that just be comfortable with being vulnerable. And then listen more than you speak. Those two, two things will get you far enough that you won't regret it. I don't know if that'll get you the CEO but get closer to it. Yeah. Wow.


So inspiring, really. So my last question to you is Who are the people that inspire you throw your career life


So my answer is not the most famous or the something that you guys would like it. But I really respect my mind by inspiration is just people who are, you know, entry level? You know, my inspiration isn't those already successful leaders out there because it's a lot easy to look at someone say, Well, I was inspired by Steve job. Nothing wrong with it, you know what, in order to apply the inspiration to you, you need to live in the same physical space physical time with that person that you're inspired, is once the Inspire person is already past tense, individual, it becomes epic. Because the environment that you live in isn't different is not the same as the person that you inspire. You understand? So, so it's really hard to relate there. Here's my 10 commandments for what you need to do to become like, when you grow up, right? Isn't this we're working because the place that you are in culturally, right? Or, or different generation, or different pandemic, right, all the things you serve, after all that you really have to look at, where the source of inspiration really become relevant. And I always found fascinating when I looked at my entry point entry level employees, because I live in the same space, same timezone, same era, yet more I listened to their opinions, while you get so many inspiration from them. And I think that's how I hope they will have other leaders who think that way. So my inspiration, role models are actually entry point employees who come in with a bit of a timid shyness, little bit lack of confidence. But when you really create the environment for them to speak up, like I said before, become less fearful, then you really get inspired by the amount of ideas that they bring to the table actions that they, you know, put themselves in the front line. And you learn so much and you grow together. So I think that's where I found my inspiration every day.


Wow, sure that your humbleness indeed, is my first time to see people, I would think like the greenest people in the office that will inspire you, I always like check with them, like after work.


So my policies, you know, we all say leaders have open door policy, right for a one on ones and one that I really lead by that my calendar is open to everybody. So anybody who's like timid speaking up in the meeting, I always ask them to, you know, put a 30 minute block on my calendar, whenever you see, you know, availability, that's where I'm not doing anything, which means I'm actually mostly doing the emails, and they they submit their one on one requests, I always accept, I don't decline them. And then we have a little one on one chat. And they speak a lot about things that they might not be able to comfortable talking about. And I like that because that that's where you get really connect right human level, not a contractual level. And so this, again, this going back to what I said about vulnerable, I need to be vulnerable by the most honest person when I talk to that person. And that person is to be very honest about what he or she wants to spend time with me. Because our times are valuable. So you get to tend to have a very authentic conversation, not a, you know, like a superficial level conversation. And I enjoyed that a lot because I learned something. Sometimes I get feedback from employees. And I always felt like thank you so much, you just made me very much stronger leader. Otherwise I would have dismissed it. And they fit great because they spoke up their ideas has been heard. And their CPU has been not, you know, like tarnishing or diminishing the value of the comments. rather listen. So I think those things are very important. It's not easy, but I found the making time for people, these best gift you can ever give. And I think you know as we go into sea level, finding time in your calendar is very difficult. But if you don't find time for people, I don't know why you're doing the sea level job right. You after all, too. nurture people, not execution of the project. Those things can be done by someone else. My belief of sea level fi folks are all about people. You got to empower people. You've got to enable people and learn from each other. So


Wow, you just show me that how difficult like to make time for people? That is fair, right? Because I just want to ask you, how do you manage to like, really spare your time to young people? Because I think like time for luxury, you have lots of meetings, your loss of life, maybe family issues, you want to deal with this, like how to treasure your talents. Wow. Like all the relationships, you build stable? Well, yeah. Great, I think like, yeah, I believe think we covered all the questions today. So it was such a pleasure for me to host the session with Kevin in the last hour. So given again, I would like to say my gratitude to you on behalf of the SEO class team, I'd leave our audience enjoys this chat session as much as I do. also like to thank you for all audience stay until the end of the chat, lava lollies, please stay healthy, safe and well. So we will end our chat session. Now. You always can revisit our sections on the Facebook opposite of class. So thank you very much.


All right. Thank you guys. Have a good day.


Thank you. Bye bye